The first note I texted Fran about this book was "Goth Moomins"? Which I think needs unpacking but there's two components to that phrase, basically:
1 - Peake's characterizations are cartoon-like, relying on exaggerated physical characteristics to describe personalities (as Fran has detailed above). So I found myself thinking of Tove Jansson right away (because her Moominland was a fully realized literary creation as well as an illustrated one) but also Gahan Wilson and Charles Addams, who are closer to the "goth" half of this equation. (Although this needs further investigation, the writing style also reminded me of John Gardner, in particular The Sunlight Dialogues with its illustrations by John Napper).
2 - The big difference between Peake's writing and Jansson's, so far, is the ecological philosophy of Moominland vs Gormenghast's architectural approach. Just as the Moomins and their neighbors together make up the wildlife that maintains the natural environment around them (for more on character vs. environment, read Jansson's gorgeous novella Sommarboken), the characters in Titus Groan are written as if they are part of the architecture.
The servant class have their roles and assigned rooms, beginning with Rottcodd, the curator of the Hall of Bright Carvings who never drops his feather duster, while the royal family have also isolated themselves so much that they, too, become extensions of Gormenghast, like the Countess, adorned with birds in her enormous bed as if she herself were one of the Carvings.
(To this second point, I guess as long as we're teasing out where the plot of this novel might be going, it makes sense to keep an eye on Steerpike -- who seems to have escaped his assigned place in the castle for the time being -- and Nanny Slagg, who is so far the only character to venture outside the castle itself.)
Of course none of the writers or artists mentioned above are themselves British which seems like an essential component of Peake's worldview as well. Given his upbringing I'm not totally sure that it would be fair to say his work reflects any kind of outsider perspective on England but there is a fantasy-satirical angle here about an empire so old that its maintenance belongs entirely to caretakers who have forgotten why they are there -- the only one with real passion for the customs of Gormenghast seems to be Sourdust, the librarian.
(great to be here! if you saw me accidentally post this comment first under the wrong issue ... no you didn't.)
this comment goes wild... thank you for all of this...!!!
I've actually ONLY read two of Jansson's books - one of which was the aforementioned Sommarboken and then Fair Play. Though I have great affection for the Moomins as iconography, I know very little about their lore/world beyond what stuffed animals I try to get all my friends' kids. But picking up a Moomins book last fall gave me a greater sense of the overall world-building there, that the text far more resembles a "graphic novel" than a "kid's book," so to speak, and that there is a depth of universe.
I went back and forth on the outsider of it all too - moreso I'm curious about the isolationist factor, e.g. if you have all these rules and rituals you think you are supposed to maintain in steady consistency, whether or not anyone is watching, what will those become over time, an unending game of telephone or texting yourself a meme to post on browser, or whatever.
The sign of a book with gloriously baroque language: I've fired up a list of my favorite words used in these first chapters, including "recrudescent."
So far, I've been delighted by how funny Titus Groan is. I think I was anticipating something more dour and self-serious. And, as mentioned in Fran's post, Peake's emphasis on world-building through physical descriptions is so effective, I'm really amazed that this hasn't been made into films. Like...does Tim Burton know about this??
I am not a huge fantasy person and I was so obsessed with Middlemarch last year that I opened this book feeling slightly bummed we weren't just reading more George Eliot, but now I'm #Groanin'.
I also found myself looking up "recrudescent" - I should dedicate some time next issue to some of the words I've forced myself to look up. Some of them are "giving GRE" but I famously loved studying for the GRE, so that's only a pleasure for me.
I'm also surprised by how funny it is, even though that was one of the main appeals of the book in the first place. The line about the cherubs on the ceiling being painted by an elder Groan and a servant who fell seventy feet and died had a really great kind of Gorey-esque delivery to it.
I don't think of myself as a big fantasy person either. But at the moment, this doesn't even feel too much like fantasy just yet. Apart from the little lad's violet eyes, has there even been any... magic? I suppose the fact that the cat room isn't described as a horrorshow of filth (indeed, all the cats are white and unstreaked with excretions) is probably inexplicable without the use of spells, but otherwise? Did I miss anything?
There’s an essay by someone in the greater sff universe of like, Moorcock/LeGuin/Delany/Lackey that speculates about how different the fantasy landscape would look if Gormenghast was “The Book” and not Lord Of The Rings, and this is the biggest thing it harps on. It is fantasy, in the sense that it’s certainly not set in “the real world”, but there’s nothing in the way of magic or fantastic beasts or elves or dwarves and things of that nature. This world is improbable, but not impossible.
I’ve tried twice to do the BBC series, because it’s very well cast, but I’ve bounced off it both times. It has a very charming low budget aesthetic, which is cool but also a hurdle given how richly realized Castle Gormanghast and its freak inhabitants are in the minds eye. Tim Burton needs to stay away imo, tho I admit his “whole deal” is visually well-suited for the task.
I don't know how many people have editions featuring a preface from Anthony Burgess, but he wrote something that really struck me (at work, don't have the book in front of me, can't quote from the text) about how the use of Dickensian caricature is something of a misdirect. Essentially, just because the characters are written in a comic, archetypal style doesn't mean that we're not meant to take them seriously. And, although there haven't been many moments that stick out to me as particularly serious just yet, I was pretty taken aback by Keda's grief over the child she's recently lost. Notable, too, that it would take until almost the 1/5th or 1/4th mark for a moment of actual pathos to emerge.
We have that copy in the house though I actually switched over to the 2nd edition I picked up in London (which is hard to read on account of no indentations... but you can't beat the smell of a book that old). I love the Burgess intro! The comps to Dickens feel fitting on the surface but the rules of the universe feel (and are, of course) totally different - the positionality of all the characters, even when divided into "upstairs" v "downstairs" - feels much more wavering and tenuous... like someone could slip down or fall upwards at any second.
Novels About Weird Little Guys is my favorite genre, so my general impression right now is how fun it is to read a fantasy book whose exposition isn't (really) lore or magic or politics, and is really just 'look at how freaky all these guys are'
And as vivid as his visual descriptions are, im only going to be picture the twins as Patty and Selma from the Simpsons
Hrabal's 'the little town where time stood still' is prolly my fav I've read recently. Dag Solstad's novels and PG Wodehouse's Bertie and Jeeves novels are v fun, too. And Knausgaard is a Weird Little Guy IMO
i am already behind - EEK - and I'm probably going to stay that way all month. However...
You have already shouted out my primary observation so far which is re: the prevalence of appearances in this book. Specifically, the number body parts named per page is kind of astonishing. And they all seem to be doing things of their own accord too: eyes are rolling around, limbs are reaching and scrambling, heads are bobbing. It's kind of like, he's not taking it for granted that you know he's describing a person; everyone you encounter is sort of a new creature. The effect was very grotesque and uncanny for me in a delightful way.
The sort of overwhelming amount of stimuli I think is also contributing to the density. It's hard for me at times to like, parse what part of the sentence is action and what part is just another freaky limb on the move. Definitely harder to read than Middlemarch so far on a sentence to sentence level. But it is really evocative and fun, so my plan is to just let Mervyn cook and take my time with it.
I think my most immediate surprise when reading Middlemarch was how conversational and chatty it was - and it wasn't always that dialogue-rich, but Eliot's narrative voice does sound like your friend leaving you a long voice memo about something that happened to them. This, in turn, feels much more like reading a lore guide - funny because Sourdust is there with his three books of Groan lore - but that has its own pleasures too, and I love seeing how everyone's bodies shift and move. There is a real grounded quality to the grotesque nature of how bodies twitch and expand... not to be like, "we are all meat sacks" but it has a much more artful take on the ways in which organs and bones and muscles have all come together to make a person.
some of the bodily descriptions (esp Swelter, Flay, and Prunsesquallor) kinda evoke some of the 'decaying humanoid' type Elden ring bosses to me (I haven't played the game, I only watch boss fights on YouTube)
Dark Souls is how I first got into Gormenghast lmao, someone recommending it in a “what is some other media that feels like dark souls” thread way back in like 2013
So glad to be back for Mervyn May! Really enjoying this weirdly charming and charmingly weird book so far. I totally agree with you (and others) about the descriptions. I feel like you could probably guess that Mervyn was an illustrator even without the foreword, given that he’ll take a passage that’s essentially just, like, “there was an attic,” and describe it so evocatively that it makes you feel alive and awake to the poetry of our world
I find the writing most memorable when his descriptive language blends with little quirks of behavior to create lightning-quick characterizations like:
- The Grey Scrubbers are barely mentioned but I was so taken with their whole vibe. Not sure if this is too niche a reference but them happily drunk under the table made me think of a college football team’s offensive linemen at a pre-season barbecue hosted by their conditioning coach
- We hardly know her, but I was so moved by the small moment when Keda takes one last second of private grief for her own child before turning her focus/love to Titus.
- Before there was Kendrick v. Drake, there was Flay v. Swelter? Sorry, sorry… but the spite? the chain slap???
Phil & I were talking about the Grey Scrubbers last night - their brief and very evocative entrance! I'm not sure they wind up coming back into the fold, but I think that + what is actually INSIDE the Hall of Bright Carvings feels so deliberately withholding. Like there are all these artists out there who every year see their work getting burned in front of them (it's giving digital media industry...).
Along with the attic description, I really loved the description of Sepulchrave's breakfast, e.g. "the pagoda of toast"!!!!
i think i'm going to comment my biggest jbol moment every week. this week: "Mr. Flay had learned that the huge house of flesh before him [Swelter], whatever its faults, had certainly a gift for sarcasm beyond the limits of his own taciturn nature." we gotta start calling people huge houses of flesh❓
Gormenghast is a series I’ve heard people talk about, but it’s pretty far outside of my comfort zone, so I’m excited to read Titus Groan in a weekly book club setting! I don’t have any seriously organized criticism, but I can share few observations:
1. The reveal of the cat room took me to another stratosphere (complimentary). An entire sea of white cats on blue carpet??
2. At first I found the slow build of “what’s actually happening” frustrating, but after getting introduced to Steerpike, I’m enjoying the ride of the narrative! (Love an audience surrogate, what can I say)
3. Favorite Gormenghast resident (so far) is maybe Sourdust? I am a sucker for any librarian-esque character in a world like this, and I loved the detail of the revising traditions due to a staircase being unusable.
Excited to #KeepItMervyn all May long! #FuschiaApologist #LetHerHaveHerAtticAndABagOfApples
I found the intro + subsequent vanishing of Steerpike really useful, like we get the hint of an audience surrogate, so to speak, and then we're just back in the world where hopefully we're keeping up with it!
Mervyn May is here at last!!!! I love the way this book embodies the setting in a literal, physical sense. If you are reading a print edition, you’ll notice that each page is unbearably dense— small type, cramped spacing, rivers (the design/typography term for lines of negative space that build up between the words of a paragraph) abound like corridors and secret passages that can cause your eye to wander and get lost. The prose itself is archaic, decadent, ripped from a stuffy, baroque past and full of dead air that fills with heat and stench… as the book evolves, you might notice changes in the pacing and tone of the language that mirror the changes in Groanian society that are taking place. It’s a very clever way to make the book itself “come alive” as it were, without relying on the sort of typographical chicanery of stuff like House Of Leaves…
The Dickinsian angle here is interesting too, if only because when I first read tha Gormenghast books, I pictured everything with a sort of Tudor by way of Zardoz aesthetic, but Peake’s illustrations are much more grounded in 19th century styles of dress.
I want to shout out Fran’s very astute observation that much of the grotesquery and caricature present in the physical descriptions of characters comes from the floating POV of people hyper aware of their position in society as well as the positions of those around them, something it took me until nearly halfway through my first read to pick up on!
Lastly, Fran, if you like floating omniscient third person POV, it’s a tradition being kept very much alive and well in the world of fantasy literature, to the point where I would love to see an epic fantasy saga come out that has some sort of restrictive POV. ASOIAF/Malazan and their consequences have been a disaster for the human race etc.
That's a good point re: ASOIAF... there is something that always feels very "television" about floating POV, which obviously all goes back to Dickens, in some sense, with the episodic nature of his own storytelling. I really like a drifting, almost lazy third person omniscient which will pick up and put down very gracefully - so hard to do. Forster does this kind of, but he uses these transitions where he steps even further back and explains a building or a symphony, which is not unlike what Peake does, kinda, but feels more segmented and gossipy in context.
Just kind of rolling along with the slow burn right now, so I don't have a ton to add. The Grey Scrubbers intro—"There was no expression whatever upon the eighteen faces, unless the lack of expression is in itself an expression. They were simply slabs that the Grey Scrubbers spoke from occasionally, stared from incessantly, heard with, hardly ever." I mean, holy shit.
Also:
"When?" said Flay, who left out most of every sentence. [HEART EYES EMOJI]
One thing I do fight against mentally, as a copy editor by trade, is the cavalier British tradition of just putting a comma wherever, unless it's a spot that really needs a comma in which case oops I've suddenly misplaced all my commas you'll just have to go without dearie.
I loved Flay's version of like, steno speech, just jumping from question to half-statement to question again. I really like Flay actually - he is a hater, which I always respect.
I am new here (hi!) so I missed Middlemarch May last year, so I will say I was a little nervous when I saw this was the book club pick. It felt a little daunting - a gothic fantasy story from the 40s I'd never heard of? The thing that has surprised me most is how fast paced and fun it has been to read. I want to stay with the characters and their weird little quirks and gripes. While feeling like weird little Tim Burton creations, they also all feel so human. The floating third person POV definitely keeps things moving even though nothing has really happened yet? I'm really digging it so far!
I was surprised to reach the cut-off point and be like, "wait, what has actually... HAPPENED," but I think this is one of those sly texts where the "happening" is... well, happening the whole time. The thing that happened is Titus! And all that we've seen so far is a ripple effect across the castle, who is being what kind of freak and why and how. I'm glad you're enjoying so far!
As many have said, I also love the floating perspective. I really love the way that structures our introduction to Gormenghast. We meet one person who never leaves a room, and he is visited by someone, and we follow that someone, who meets with someone, and we follow that person. So by the time we get to the christening, we have a really strong sense of who all the players are--because my mind would be like "oh you obviously should open the book with the christening".
And I love the grotesques, I love grotesques in general. The Countess of Groan is my favorite, and her intro description haunts me. And so does the note about the birds having torn up the shoulder her christening outfit.
I find it interesting how many people brought up Tim Burton's aesthetic, because for me, it is Yorgos Lanthimos who comes to mind--specifically The Favourite, with what's his name the boy from the kitchen (all the S names... I can't keep up) and how he is clearly working on his social standing.
Yes, Phil and I were talking Lanthimos as well - probably the ideal modern filmmaker. I guess I can kind of see late 80s/90s Burton but it's a different kind of darkness from him. Maybe this is a little Ken Russell as well... though nowhere as decadent as his works.
After having just read Middlemarch in anticipation of the next great May reading event, I am shocked by the lack of conventionally good looking folk and abundance of weird little guys (Raffles is the only character from Middlemarch that belongs in Gormenghast). Anyway, I have LOL'ed multiple times while reading this first section. The below passage had me howling:
"Lowering himself suddenly to his knees... he was able by dint of concentration to observe, within three inches of his keyholed eye, an eye which was not his, being not only of a different colour to his own iron marble, but being, which is more convincing, on the other side of the door."
My current contemplation is whether I like Prunesquallor or not.. smash or pass? That laugh is unbearable but I enjoyed him saying that Swelter barbarized him.
I also highlighted that passage! Such a good example of the type of humor that's in here..
Prunesquallor is PASS for me at this present time. Annoying laugh is a dealbreaker, and he strikes me at initial read as the most evil presence so far just based "terrible vibe."
I'm drawn to the weird, drole world of this book, which I had never heard of. My next design project is a cat room. Has anyone weighed in on Rottcodd? I kind of love him. This line: "... it would have been impossible for him to show any signs of enthusiasm himself when surrounded by it in others" made me laugh. There were others. The dialogue between Rottcodd and Flay in the Hall of Bright Carvings is priceless, "conversation was never one of Mr. Flay's accomplishments..."
I LOVVVED that opening scene and both remain early favorites (though I have a feeling we won't see a ton of Rottcodd unless he leaves his room). Being the curator of all this art from people you never see and don't care about - apt metaphor!!!
I cheated and started this book in April and so I am a bit ahead of Titus' christening. The number of characters is relatively small so Peake is able to really flesh them out. Although there are illustrations, I enjoy imagining how they all look; the illustrations are not really necessary. To me, the characters remind me of a mash-up of The Addams Family and Downton Abbey (or Brideshead Revisited or even Saltburn!). It's all very cinematic and makes me wonder if anyone has tried to make a movie or TV series from these books. I definitely have my favorite characters (females in general) but it's too early to see if that will stick. And Gormanghast itself is such a vivid character.
Would be really curious to see an attempt at visualization here but also apprehensive. Like you, I'm finding description alone really sustains my imagination.
I am so excited for another May book club and this time with a book I'd never even heard of, much less read before.
The last few Gothic-tinged books I've read have all been pulpy romance from a little after Titus Groan was published (notably Mistress of Mellyn (1960), which is a lot like Jane Eyre, and Gaywyck (1980), which is a lot like Jane Eyre, but gay). Both of those books were in the first person, single POV, looking back, clearly trying to do a Jane Eyre-Rebecca thing. A big thing in Gothic romances discussion that I kind of hate is the phrase "too stupid to live" which is usually deployed against a heroine, when she is making decisions that the reader wouldn't make, but the reader is clued into the sinister signals that the heroine is still reading in good faith. Plus the Gothic heroines are frequently making decisions that ultimately preserve their lives.
This means I'm on the watch for any TSTL characters that need defending, especially because there is no guarantee they won't die since we're not in genre fiction romance and we won't be getting their perspectives on "trying their best." Maybe Fuchsias? Maybe Keda? The descriptions of just how identical Cora and Clarice were had me snorting.
Keda seems the most "normal person" in all of this and aggressively sympathetic. I should say that when I think Fuchsia is the only one with emotional motivation so far, I mostly mean that we haven't seen Keda's grief manifest into any kind of action outside of obedience... yet! I always hate those "TSTL" comments or "why are the characters doing that" which often come from people who can't externalize their own bad decisions... you want a book where a character is only behaving like how you would? Grow up.... Part of the grand appeal of a book like Jane Eyre (one of my all time favs) is that she falls for a guy who really sucks. This is also, of course, the appeal of Challengers.
Mervyn May I?
The first note I texted Fran about this book was "Goth Moomins"? Which I think needs unpacking but there's two components to that phrase, basically:
1 - Peake's characterizations are cartoon-like, relying on exaggerated physical characteristics to describe personalities (as Fran has detailed above). So I found myself thinking of Tove Jansson right away (because her Moominland was a fully realized literary creation as well as an illustrated one) but also Gahan Wilson and Charles Addams, who are closer to the "goth" half of this equation. (Although this needs further investigation, the writing style also reminded me of John Gardner, in particular The Sunlight Dialogues with its illustrations by John Napper).
2 - The big difference between Peake's writing and Jansson's, so far, is the ecological philosophy of Moominland vs Gormenghast's architectural approach. Just as the Moomins and their neighbors together make up the wildlife that maintains the natural environment around them (for more on character vs. environment, read Jansson's gorgeous novella Sommarboken), the characters in Titus Groan are written as if they are part of the architecture.
The servant class have their roles and assigned rooms, beginning with Rottcodd, the curator of the Hall of Bright Carvings who never drops his feather duster, while the royal family have also isolated themselves so much that they, too, become extensions of Gormenghast, like the Countess, adorned with birds in her enormous bed as if she herself were one of the Carvings.
(To this second point, I guess as long as we're teasing out where the plot of this novel might be going, it makes sense to keep an eye on Steerpike -- who seems to have escaped his assigned place in the castle for the time being -- and Nanny Slagg, who is so far the only character to venture outside the castle itself.)
Of course none of the writers or artists mentioned above are themselves British which seems like an essential component of Peake's worldview as well. Given his upbringing I'm not totally sure that it would be fair to say his work reflects any kind of outsider perspective on England but there is a fantasy-satirical angle here about an empire so old that its maintenance belongs entirely to caretakers who have forgotten why they are there -- the only one with real passion for the customs of Gormenghast seems to be Sourdust, the librarian.
(great to be here! if you saw me accidentally post this comment first under the wrong issue ... no you didn't.)
this comment goes wild... thank you for all of this...!!!
I've actually ONLY read two of Jansson's books - one of which was the aforementioned Sommarboken and then Fair Play. Though I have great affection for the Moomins as iconography, I know very little about their lore/world beyond what stuffed animals I try to get all my friends' kids. But picking up a Moomins book last fall gave me a greater sense of the overall world-building there, that the text far more resembles a "graphic novel" than a "kid's book," so to speak, and that there is a depth of universe.
I went back and forth on the outsider of it all too - moreso I'm curious about the isolationist factor, e.g. if you have all these rules and rituals you think you are supposed to maintain in steady consistency, whether or not anyone is watching, what will those become over time, an unending game of telephone or texting yourself a meme to post on browser, or whatever.
thank you for being here!!
The sign of a book with gloriously baroque language: I've fired up a list of my favorite words used in these first chapters, including "recrudescent."
So far, I've been delighted by how funny Titus Groan is. I think I was anticipating something more dour and self-serious. And, as mentioned in Fran's post, Peake's emphasis on world-building through physical descriptions is so effective, I'm really amazed that this hasn't been made into films. Like...does Tim Burton know about this??
I am not a huge fantasy person and I was so obsessed with Middlemarch last year that I opened this book feeling slightly bummed we weren't just reading more George Eliot, but now I'm #Groanin'.
#MervynMay #WeGroanin' #KedasAngels
I also found myself looking up "recrudescent" - I should dedicate some time next issue to some of the words I've forced myself to look up. Some of them are "giving GRE" but I famously loved studying for the GRE, so that's only a pleasure for me.
I'm also surprised by how funny it is, even though that was one of the main appeals of the book in the first place. The line about the cherubs on the ceiling being painted by an elder Groan and a servant who fell seventy feet and died had a really great kind of Gorey-esque delivery to it.
There IS a BBC miniseries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gormenghast_(TV_serial) or dare I say "serial"... I think unlike #MiddlemarchMay.... we will all be watching this one after.
I don't think of myself as a big fantasy person either. But at the moment, this doesn't even feel too much like fantasy just yet. Apart from the little lad's violet eyes, has there even been any... magic? I suppose the fact that the cat room isn't described as a horrorshow of filth (indeed, all the cats are white and unstreaked with excretions) is probably inexplicable without the use of spells, but otherwise? Did I miss anything?
No, I think that is (for now - and perhaps for always) the extent of it. I was partially sold on this as a fantasy with "no spells."
There’s an essay by someone in the greater sff universe of like, Moorcock/LeGuin/Delany/Lackey that speculates about how different the fantasy landscape would look if Gormenghast was “The Book” and not Lord Of The Rings, and this is the biggest thing it harps on. It is fantasy, in the sense that it’s certainly not set in “the real world”, but there’s nothing in the way of magic or fantastic beasts or elves or dwarves and things of that nature. This world is improbable, but not impossible.
I’ve tried twice to do the BBC series, because it’s very well cast, but I’ve bounced off it both times. It has a very charming low budget aesthetic, which is cool but also a hurdle given how richly realized Castle Gormanghast and its freak inhabitants are in the minds eye. Tim Burton needs to stay away imo, tho I admit his “whole deal” is visually well-suited for the task.
I am actually finding myself imagining a very Tim Burton-esque movie play out while I read this. Totally agree with you about that!
I don't know how many people have editions featuring a preface from Anthony Burgess, but he wrote something that really struck me (at work, don't have the book in front of me, can't quote from the text) about how the use of Dickensian caricature is something of a misdirect. Essentially, just because the characters are written in a comic, archetypal style doesn't mean that we're not meant to take them seriously. And, although there haven't been many moments that stick out to me as particularly serious just yet, I was pretty taken aback by Keda's grief over the child she's recently lost. Notable, too, that it would take until almost the 1/5th or 1/4th mark for a moment of actual pathos to emerge.
We have that copy in the house though I actually switched over to the 2nd edition I picked up in London (which is hard to read on account of no indentations... but you can't beat the smell of a book that old). I love the Burgess intro! The comps to Dickens feel fitting on the surface but the rules of the universe feel (and are, of course) totally different - the positionality of all the characters, even when divided into "upstairs" v "downstairs" - feels much more wavering and tenuous... like someone could slip down or fall upwards at any second.
Novels About Weird Little Guys is my favorite genre, so my general impression right now is how fun it is to read a fantasy book whose exposition isn't (really) lore or magic or politics, and is really just 'look at how freaky all these guys are'
And as vivid as his visual descriptions are, im only going to be picture the twins as Patty and Selma from the Simpsons
THIS!!!
I need some other Novels About Weird Little Guys suggestions…
Hrabal's 'the little town where time stood still' is prolly my fav I've read recently. Dag Solstad's novels and PG Wodehouse's Bertie and Jeeves novels are v fun, too. And Knausgaard is a Weird Little Guy IMO
i am already behind - EEK - and I'm probably going to stay that way all month. However...
You have already shouted out my primary observation so far which is re: the prevalence of appearances in this book. Specifically, the number body parts named per page is kind of astonishing. And they all seem to be doing things of their own accord too: eyes are rolling around, limbs are reaching and scrambling, heads are bobbing. It's kind of like, he's not taking it for granted that you know he's describing a person; everyone you encounter is sort of a new creature. The effect was very grotesque and uncanny for me in a delightful way.
The sort of overwhelming amount of stimuli I think is also contributing to the density. It's hard for me at times to like, parse what part of the sentence is action and what part is just another freaky limb on the move. Definitely harder to read than Middlemarch so far on a sentence to sentence level. But it is really evocative and fun, so my plan is to just let Mervyn cook and take my time with it.
I think my most immediate surprise when reading Middlemarch was how conversational and chatty it was - and it wasn't always that dialogue-rich, but Eliot's narrative voice does sound like your friend leaving you a long voice memo about something that happened to them. This, in turn, feels much more like reading a lore guide - funny because Sourdust is there with his three books of Groan lore - but that has its own pleasures too, and I love seeing how everyone's bodies shift and move. There is a real grounded quality to the grotesque nature of how bodies twitch and expand... not to be like, "we are all meat sacks" but it has a much more artful take on the ways in which organs and bones and muscles have all come together to make a person.
some of the bodily descriptions (esp Swelter, Flay, and Prunsesquallor) kinda evoke some of the 'decaying humanoid' type Elden ring bosses to me (I haven't played the game, I only watch boss fights on YouTube)
wait same lol... or on Twitch 🙈
Dark Souls is how I first got into Gormenghast lmao, someone recommending it in a “what is some other media that feels like dark souls” thread way back in like 2013
So glad to be back for Mervyn May! Really enjoying this weirdly charming and charmingly weird book so far. I totally agree with you (and others) about the descriptions. I feel like you could probably guess that Mervyn was an illustrator even without the foreword, given that he’ll take a passage that’s essentially just, like, “there was an attic,” and describe it so evocatively that it makes you feel alive and awake to the poetry of our world
I find the writing most memorable when his descriptive language blends with little quirks of behavior to create lightning-quick characterizations like:
- The Grey Scrubbers are barely mentioned but I was so taken with their whole vibe. Not sure if this is too niche a reference but them happily drunk under the table made me think of a college football team’s offensive linemen at a pre-season barbecue hosted by their conditioning coach
- We hardly know her, but I was so moved by the small moment when Keda takes one last second of private grief for her own child before turning her focus/love to Titus.
- Before there was Kendrick v. Drake, there was Flay v. Swelter? Sorry, sorry… but the spite? the chain slap???
Phil & I were talking about the Grey Scrubbers last night - their brief and very evocative entrance! I'm not sure they wind up coming back into the fold, but I think that + what is actually INSIDE the Hall of Bright Carvings feels so deliberately withholding. Like there are all these artists out there who every year see their work getting burned in front of them (it's giving digital media industry...).
Along with the attic description, I really loved the description of Sepulchrave's breakfast, e.g. "the pagoda of toast"!!!!
i think i'm going to comment my biggest jbol moment every week. this week: "Mr. Flay had learned that the huge house of flesh before him [Swelter], whatever its faults, had certainly a gift for sarcasm beyond the limits of his own taciturn nature." we gotta start calling people huge houses of flesh❓
it's giving "Saul Tenser"
ok this
Gormenghast is a series I’ve heard people talk about, but it’s pretty far outside of my comfort zone, so I’m excited to read Titus Groan in a weekly book club setting! I don’t have any seriously organized criticism, but I can share few observations:
1. The reveal of the cat room took me to another stratosphere (complimentary). An entire sea of white cats on blue carpet??
2. At first I found the slow build of “what’s actually happening” frustrating, but after getting introduced to Steerpike, I’m enjoying the ride of the narrative! (Love an audience surrogate, what can I say)
3. Favorite Gormenghast resident (so far) is maybe Sourdust? I am a sucker for any librarian-esque character in a world like this, and I loved the detail of the revising traditions due to a staircase being unusable.
Excited to #KeepItMervyn all May long! #FuschiaApologist #LetHerHaveHerAtticAndABagOfApples
I found the intro + subsequent vanishing of Steerpike really useful, like we get the hint of an audience surrogate, so to speak, and then we're just back in the world where hopefully we're keeping up with it!
Agreed! It was like I found it comforting just knowing that was someone as confused as I was somewhere in the castle.
Also, if he turns out to be a terrible man, I will completely disavow him!
how can i get a cat room
Again, just gotta stress how gross a cat room would actually be -- would the cuddles be worth the smell?
yeah duh
Mervyn May is here at last!!!! I love the way this book embodies the setting in a literal, physical sense. If you are reading a print edition, you’ll notice that each page is unbearably dense— small type, cramped spacing, rivers (the design/typography term for lines of negative space that build up between the words of a paragraph) abound like corridors and secret passages that can cause your eye to wander and get lost. The prose itself is archaic, decadent, ripped from a stuffy, baroque past and full of dead air that fills with heat and stench… as the book evolves, you might notice changes in the pacing and tone of the language that mirror the changes in Groanian society that are taking place. It’s a very clever way to make the book itself “come alive” as it were, without relying on the sort of typographical chicanery of stuff like House Of Leaves…
The Dickinsian angle here is interesting too, if only because when I first read tha Gormenghast books, I pictured everything with a sort of Tudor by way of Zardoz aesthetic, but Peake’s illustrations are much more grounded in 19th century styles of dress.
I want to shout out Fran’s very astute observation that much of the grotesquery and caricature present in the physical descriptions of characters comes from the floating POV of people hyper aware of their position in society as well as the positions of those around them, something it took me until nearly halfway through my first read to pick up on!
Lastly, Fran, if you like floating omniscient third person POV, it’s a tradition being kept very much alive and well in the world of fantasy literature, to the point where I would love to see an epic fantasy saga come out that has some sort of restrictive POV. ASOIAF/Malazan and their consequences have been a disaster for the human race etc.
That's a good point re: ASOIAF... there is something that always feels very "television" about floating POV, which obviously all goes back to Dickens, in some sense, with the episodic nature of his own storytelling. I really like a drifting, almost lazy third person omniscient which will pick up and put down very gracefully - so hard to do. Forster does this kind of, but he uses these transitions where he steps even further back and explains a building or a symphony, which is not unlike what Peake does, kinda, but feels more segmented and gossipy in context.
Just kind of rolling along with the slow burn right now, so I don't have a ton to add. The Grey Scrubbers intro—"There was no expression whatever upon the eighteen faces, unless the lack of expression is in itself an expression. They were simply slabs that the Grey Scrubbers spoke from occasionally, stared from incessantly, heard with, hardly ever." I mean, holy shit.
Also:
"When?" said Flay, who left out most of every sentence. [HEART EYES EMOJI]
One thing I do fight against mentally, as a copy editor by trade, is the cavalier British tradition of just putting a comma wherever, unless it's a spot that really needs a comma in which case oops I've suddenly misplaced all my commas you'll just have to go without dearie.
I loved Flay's version of like, steno speech, just jumping from question to half-statement to question again. I really like Flay actually - he is a hater, which I always respect.
I am new here (hi!) so I missed Middlemarch May last year, so I will say I was a little nervous when I saw this was the book club pick. It felt a little daunting - a gothic fantasy story from the 40s I'd never heard of? The thing that has surprised me most is how fast paced and fun it has been to read. I want to stay with the characters and their weird little quirks and gripes. While feeling like weird little Tim Burton creations, they also all feel so human. The floating third person POV definitely keeps things moving even though nothing has really happened yet? I'm really digging it so far!
I was surprised to reach the cut-off point and be like, "wait, what has actually... HAPPENED," but I think this is one of those sly texts where the "happening" is... well, happening the whole time. The thing that happened is Titus! And all that we've seen so far is a ripple effect across the castle, who is being what kind of freak and why and how. I'm glad you're enjoying so far!
As many have said, I also love the floating perspective. I really love the way that structures our introduction to Gormenghast. We meet one person who never leaves a room, and he is visited by someone, and we follow that someone, who meets with someone, and we follow that person. So by the time we get to the christening, we have a really strong sense of who all the players are--because my mind would be like "oh you obviously should open the book with the christening".
And I love the grotesques, I love grotesques in general. The Countess of Groan is my favorite, and her intro description haunts me. And so does the note about the birds having torn up the shoulder her christening outfit.
I find it interesting how many people brought up Tim Burton's aesthetic, because for me, it is Yorgos Lanthimos who comes to mind--specifically The Favourite, with what's his name the boy from the kitchen (all the S names... I can't keep up) and how he is clearly working on his social standing.
Lastly, I was, of course, reminded of Lapvona💜
Yes, Phil and I were talking Lanthimos as well - probably the ideal modern filmmaker. I guess I can kind of see late 80s/90s Burton but it's a different kind of darkness from him. Maybe this is a little Ken Russell as well... though nowhere as decadent as his works.
I miss Lapvona....
fran is kind of the countess and we are her creatures ❓
this!!
After having just read Middlemarch in anticipation of the next great May reading event, I am shocked by the lack of conventionally good looking folk and abundance of weird little guys (Raffles is the only character from Middlemarch that belongs in Gormenghast). Anyway, I have LOL'ed multiple times while reading this first section. The below passage had me howling:
"Lowering himself suddenly to his knees... he was able by dint of concentration to observe, within three inches of his keyholed eye, an eye which was not his, being not only of a different colour to his own iron marble, but being, which is more convincing, on the other side of the door."
My current contemplation is whether I like Prunesquallor or not.. smash or pass? That laugh is unbearable but I enjoyed him saying that Swelter barbarized him.
I also highlighted that passage! Such a good example of the type of humor that's in here..
Prunesquallor is PASS for me at this present time. Annoying laugh is a dealbreaker, and he strikes me at initial read as the most evil presence so far just based "terrible vibe."
I'm drawn to the weird, drole world of this book, which I had never heard of. My next design project is a cat room. Has anyone weighed in on Rottcodd? I kind of love him. This line: "... it would have been impossible for him to show any signs of enthusiasm himself when surrounded by it in others" made me laugh. There were others. The dialogue between Rottcodd and Flay in the Hall of Bright Carvings is priceless, "conversation was never one of Mr. Flay's accomplishments..."
I LOVVVED that opening scene and both remain early favorites (though I have a feeling we won't see a ton of Rottcodd unless he leaves his room). Being the curator of all this art from people you never see and don't care about - apt metaphor!!!
I cheated and started this book in April and so I am a bit ahead of Titus' christening. The number of characters is relatively small so Peake is able to really flesh them out. Although there are illustrations, I enjoy imagining how they all look; the illustrations are not really necessary. To me, the characters remind me of a mash-up of The Addams Family and Downton Abbey (or Brideshead Revisited or even Saltburn!). It's all very cinematic and makes me wonder if anyone has tried to make a movie or TV series from these books. I definitely have my favorite characters (females in general) but it's too early to see if that will stick. And Gormanghast itself is such a vivid character.
There is actually a BBC series of the first two books: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gormenghast_(TV_serial)
Would be really curious to see an attempt at visualization here but also apprehensive. Like you, I'm finding description alone really sustains my imagination.
I am so excited for another May book club and this time with a book I'd never even heard of, much less read before.
The last few Gothic-tinged books I've read have all been pulpy romance from a little after Titus Groan was published (notably Mistress of Mellyn (1960), which is a lot like Jane Eyre, and Gaywyck (1980), which is a lot like Jane Eyre, but gay). Both of those books were in the first person, single POV, looking back, clearly trying to do a Jane Eyre-Rebecca thing. A big thing in Gothic romances discussion that I kind of hate is the phrase "too stupid to live" which is usually deployed against a heroine, when she is making decisions that the reader wouldn't make, but the reader is clued into the sinister signals that the heroine is still reading in good faith. Plus the Gothic heroines are frequently making decisions that ultimately preserve their lives.
This means I'm on the watch for any TSTL characters that need defending, especially because there is no guarantee they won't die since we're not in genre fiction romance and we won't be getting their perspectives on "trying their best." Maybe Fuchsias? Maybe Keda? The descriptions of just how identical Cora and Clarice were had me snorting.
Keda seems the most "normal person" in all of this and aggressively sympathetic. I should say that when I think Fuchsia is the only one with emotional motivation so far, I mostly mean that we haven't seen Keda's grief manifest into any kind of action outside of obedience... yet! I always hate those "TSTL" comments or "why are the characters doing that" which often come from people who can't externalize their own bad decisions... you want a book where a character is only behaving like how you would? Grow up.... Part of the grand appeal of a book like Jane Eyre (one of my all time favs) is that she falls for a guy who really sucks. This is also, of course, the appeal of Challengers.