I missed #MervynMay Week 1 because I hadn’t finished the reading yet (classic), but I have been catching up and am loving this. I’m kind of glad I didn’t read it when I was younger, mainly because I would have probably gotten lost in all the dense descriptive passages. Action that in a tighter book would take a couple of chapters takes 100 pages here, but nothing ever feels bogged down because of Peake’s obvious skill at the line level. There’s always ongoing conversations about the lack of craft in modern genre lit, how everything seems written to be adapted to the screen or be as fast-paced as possible to keep readers’ attention, and while I have no idea if any of that is true it’s fun to go back and see how the OGs did it. RETVRN, etc.
Funny enough, even though description is the name of the game here, I have a hard time imagining the setting as anything but dim and gray every time I think about it visually, even when Peake mentions sunlight and green plants like he does during the christening. Maybe it’s because so much of it takes place inside a structure with endless hallways and rooms full of dust and lumber(?) and misshapen people who have all been there for a very long time.
I’ve also seen the word “grotesque” thrown around a little in these comments and I want to mention that “grotesques,” as in, the noun, are little stone carvings of creatures or faces that are affixed to the walls or roofs of buildings, kind of like gargoyles but without the drainage aspect. They’re exactly what comes to mind when I’m reading Peake’s exaggerated descriptions of all of his characters: freaky little guys with weird vibes attached to a giant building.
Funniest moment to me so far is Steerpike attempting to charm Fuschia (who is giving Bella Baxter Poor Things) by pretending to be a mime, and it works!
I think one of the other issues with the prose of contemporary fiction being suited towards adaptation is that there is an immense and annoying pressure for everything to "make sense." I think if I were to assign everyone to draw a map of Gormenghast there'd be, I don't know, 20 different versions of it, and yet this kind of floating concept of what the world looks like doesn't hinder the overall comprehension nor does it detract from what is "happening," it only enriches the power of imagination. For once I am glad a book doesn't have a map in the beginning.
I keep thinking of Sideways Stories from Wayside School... <3 Sachar
This is why I chafe at “magic systems” and backstory flashbacks and stuff like that. Sometimes it’s appropriate but sometimes it feels like the author is covering all their bases for their least charitable readers.
Imagine like...a Titus Groan prequel explaining why everything is Like That. Gormenghast First Class. Swelter v Flay: Origins. Young Prunesquallor.
The Steerpike Clown scene is fantastic. Also, it made me more interested in Steerpike as a person -- at first he seemed like a bit of a whiner to me (and then, after the climbing sequence, a more athletic whiner), so it's nice to see the guy thinking on his feet. Hard not to be disarmed by a clown with lather all over his face.
One thing that keeps me rooting for Steerpike in spite of his increasing sinistry is the novelty of his existence in this world. It feels as though the confines of Castle Gormenghast are trapped in amber (no Zelazny), as if the conceit of divine right that powered the engine of feudalism for a good 1000 years or so was genuine and absolute, and along comes young Steerpike, who’s the first person in the history of the Earldom of Groan to ever discover that one could potentially rise to a position of influence through deceit and flattery. It reminds me a little of the film “The Invention Of Lying” with Ricky Gervais, which is not very good at all but has a tremendously fun premise that would’ve made for a great Jack Lemmon comedy in the mid-1960s.
The Swelter/Flay beef proves that the cogs and complications that run the Gormenghast are more than mere automatons, but interpersonal hatred is a far cry from power plays and trickery. This may be the most fantastical element of Gormenghast— it’s a world in which feudal stations are embodied entirely, like the Arthurian romances. In Le Mort D’Arthur, (spoilers for a 1100 year old text ahead) the Kingdom of Brittany is doomed into chaos by personal treachery and emotion, functionally, by the abandonment of the Ten Commandments from within Camelot. Lancelot betrays his king out of love for his maiden, and that tortures him as a good, duty-bound Christian. Those who strive for power (Mordred and Agravain— names that would totally fit in castle Gormenghast) are outside influences, true villains, utterly godless and conceived out of Witchcraft. Here, the calls seem to be coming from inside the house.
reeling at The Invention of Lying and The Hangover getting brought up in the same #MervynMay discussion post... 2009 called???
In the way that we have no idea what the point of any royal family is anymore, it's hard to know why exactly an Earl of Gormenghast exists beyond the longwinded lore and tradition of wrapping a baby in an old book where even as conniving as Steerpike might be, his unbalancing allows surprise and wonder where there was not. He's not a psycho, at least, not that we know yet - but him watching the sunset over the castle suggested that he too can find awe and admiration the way that Keda can seek out love.
I think I didn't really read the beef between Swelter and Flay as actual hatred until this portion of the book versus their rivalry being really played for... well, not LAUGHS, per se, but as an aside. But these guys want each other dead! That's crazy. They should bring some of that energy to Downton.
Side note: even if the rivalry isn't being played for laughs, the scene where Flay figures out that Swelter is practicing Flay's murder is extremely funny (as was Flay humiliating Swelter in the... what is it? The Cool Room? The Chill Room? The Cold Room). Plus, maybe we should keep an eye on this murder practice. Best laid plans etc etc
steerpike on the roof reminded me of the plot of THE HANGOVER
here are my 3 jbol moments of the week (couldn't pick one):
1. “Mr Flay was possessed by two major vexations. The first of these lay in the feud which had arisen between himself and the mountain of pale meat…” it’s one thing after the other w these two... but i am team Swelter bc he's getting fat shamed every 20 pages
2. me after challengers: “Fuchsia clasped her hands at the curve of her breasts in the attitude of prayer. But she was not praying.”
3. this is what fran says when she publishes a new fran mag: “In the fine art of deceit and personal advancement as in any other calling this is the hallmark of the master.”
I jotted down (took a picture of) Prunesquallor's "What maladdress, by all that's impudent!" Maladdress? Helluva word.
Steerpike's journey over the many roofs of Gormenghast is also probably the most outright "fantastical" experience we've seen in the book so far, yes? I don't mean to be the genre-obsessive here, but I'm fascinated by the idea (someone brought this up last week, I think) that fantasy could have branched off into an entirely different direction if these novels had been more celebrated than the Lord of the Rings. Instead of heroes journeys and warring clans, we could have had weird guys going on strange non-adventures and scheming their way out of bad jobs. Which kind of describes many of the books I read already, but very few of them feature castles or baptismal ceremonies that involve a baby getting burrito-wrapped in the pages of an old book.
Keda-watch: though she still seems to be our least outrageously drawn character (really dig Justin's point about how similar she is to someone like Paul Atreides), I think the last scene we got with her ended on a pretty funny note. She goes back to the mud-dwellings, determined not to start shit between her old boyfriends and what does she do? She can't help herself! She looks too good! She loves too hard! (am I misreading this entirely?)
Re the pace -- it's working for me right now, but I can usually crush 90 to a hundred pages of a book no sweat in a day or two and this definitely feels a lil more laborious? I don't really wanna slow down, as I feel like I might fall out of step otherwise, but I'm not exactly racing through our weekly page count either. Curious to know if others are having the same experience.
Yes, the LOTR comparison is Phil's big note and was one of the big hallmarks in my deciding on this book, just the overwhelming curiosity at what a type of "fantasy book" could look and feel like. We have a version of a hero's journey, a regular boy who may become something great, but the context in which we understand him is so much stranger and less tangible, and I feel grateful that we're not contending with any version of a macguffin (so much as there are just a handful of props and objects that feel important as they trade hands).
telling everyone in my life that im reading 'downton abbey populated by dark souls characters' has been almost as fun as actually reading the book itself. Claire noted last week how the active-ness of many of his descriptions make it tough to discern between descriptions and actual character actions, and the more i get used to it the more fun that it.
I don't really know what to make of it yet, but I loved the scene where Steerpike is feeling his way around the (rooftop?) rock garden. The thing that jumps out to me most about his arc so far is that it very much feels like 'this is what a LinkedIn Bro thinks he would do if he was dropped into the kitchen of a medieval castle'
Prunesquallor and his sister's little 'Frasier and Niles' living setup is also fun; I also actually wrote down her quote about his insufferable levity. He plays too much! He plays too much!
I know she's a worn down old lady, but Nannie Slagg constantly complaining about the people of Gormenghast Gormenghasting feels like the Mulaney bit about Ice-T acting nonplussed by every perverted perp they run into on Law & Order: SVU
Prunesquallor and Irma is very Frasier and Niles... I was wondering what you found of Irma's sartorial choices - all her tight dresses and otherwise form-fitting attire for her bony body. Is she Gormenghast's foremost fashionista? (By process of elimination?)
Two young men, one a newborn. People who are affected by that birth. We have a nurse ... a countess. We have a doctor, brilliantly played by Prunesquallor. We have a cook. We have a librarian. We have all these characters.
- Didn't have as much time to dig into this section this week but I agree with our fearless leader that this is where Gormenghast becomes much more expansive and unpredictable even than it initially appeared, to the extent that easy or snap characterizations of Peake's project become more difficult to make use of. The climbing sequence busts a lot of conventional narratives apart. Yes, Steerpike is scheming his way, we presume, to the top ... but the top of what? Not easy to answer when the topography itself is so difficult to get a handle on. It's interesting that the characters he's chosen to attach himself to, so far, don't actually seem all that powerful, but then the nodes of power in this environment are also difficult to locate. He's learning about the world as we are: a parallel for the infant Titus, and for the writer/reader in a fantasy setting.
- the other sequence that really sent my head spinning was "Keda and Rantel". This chapter is in a much different, more straightforwardly Romantic register than the rest of the novel. I don't think Keda is described as a grotesque in the way that the other characters are, and Rantel and Braigon are like Byronic heroes, figures out of the Brontes or Hardy's pastorals. This doomed love triangle is the first time that any conflict in the story seems to have emotional as well as mortal stakes. I love the way that Peake (through Keda) writes about beauty as if it is a temporary enchantment placed upon the Outer dwellers, one that ends abruptly with the end of one's youth, and seems as in this chapter to bring with it both excitement and madness. I can see this as a plot element the novel may choose to elaborate on later or an elegant fictional lens for the condition of young adulthood.
that the Earl has played so small a role thus far also makes Steerpike's journey upwards feel peculiar, if not also thrilling - we don't really know what the Earl DOES in a political/socioeconomic sort of way, we mostly just know that he is depressed and hangs out in the library all the time (MUST BE NICE), but his power, so much that he does or doesn't have, seems otherwise tied to obligation and lore more than it is indulged, abused, or even flaunted. The Countess, I suppose, with her We Bought A Zoo energy might be taking greater advantage, but mostly to walk from room to room. Steerpike doesn't know any of this, of course, which grants his scheming a kind of freedom from obligation or particular want (for now).
The Keda section is really so nuts.. a complete 180 in tone and priority, the only character who is concerned with love, maybe? (Though I suspect Nannie Slagg in her own way thinks that she is acting on affection.) But Peake manages to do all this without objectifying the lives of the have-nots; it's not like they are free to have these immense personal relationships because they are poor or on the outskirts of society so much as they are literally just framing the world in a different way, like the ways in which late 19th century painters would also exploit the sublime. I imagine if you are always just looking UP at Gormenghast, your brain works entirely differently
Nothing in the first 170 pages led me to believe that the next 3 would set up a duel between rival lovers, but the Keda stuff was probably my favorite of this section. Her awakening reminded me of a more life-affirming version of Paul’s prescience in Dune, with Keda high on life instead of spice. “I am in love with all things—pain and all things, because I can now them from above, for something has happened and I am clear—clear.” Just lovely! And how fun to watch her suitors react to her love-drunkenness.
Also enjoyed everything Steerpike got up to, from his Houdini-ass escape to his scheming and flattery. Very curious what he’s cooking up, endgame-wise. Maybe nothing?
Other than that, no choice but to LOL at Swelter rehearsing Flay’s murder, and I loved this passage about the Earl’s library harmonizing with his depression: “All things in the long room absorbed his melancholia. The shadowing galleries brooded with slow anguish; the books receding into the deep corners, tier upon tier, seemed each a tragic note in a monumental fugue of volumes.”
Fran’s post reminded me of the incredible sibling burn about “insufferable levity,” but I’m curious if anyone has a good read on the doctor in general? The Fuchsia medicine/wine scene felt so creepy to me but I’m not sure I totally understood what was going on
That the Earl's main thing is "being depressed" feels thus far underexplored (I have the type of too online culture writer brain worms where I can only think about people being like "TTPD is problematic because Taylor Swift is mad at Joe Alwyn for having depression").
The prose around Keda's POV feels so unlike a lot of what comes on either side of it. Her little arc in this chapter feels - for now - more optimistic than others, or at least in touch with the greater weight of the world rather than play-acting the world (which is perhaps also why her pain feels more potent).
I wonder the type of character that Prunesquallor is might have felt less threatening during the time in which it was written -- to me he is almost like a scary clown (upbeat, jovial, mildly menacing) though he hasn't actively (? I don't think) put anyone into harm's way. Perhaps he is just a "loler," as they say.
I think you and Jake are right re: Prunesquallor -- scary clown is a helpful/harrowing image, though I agree that he's mostly just doing things to amuse himself. The Earl being a little one-note is interesting because we're halfway through this book (ostensibly) about succession, and yet the Earl (depressed) and his son (purple eyes) are arguably the two least developed characters. Not that I'm complaining, just notable!
Re Fuschia's medicine/wine -- I get the sense that Prunesquallor is the medieval equivalent of that doctor your friends told you about who hands out prescriptions like candy. I also caught onto a light vibe between him and his sister, but maybe I'm wrong?
As someone who has read and loved all three gormenghast books, steerpike’s arc is crazy af…especially as Titus gets older in the second book. It’s so interesting to revisit his origins! He’s a wicked little guy but undeniably clever, and such a perfect device to explore how strange the world is, because he is a class outsider
love hearing this, and kind of fascinated by him being somewhat outright wicked. I just got to the line in the next section where he's envisioning a "delicious dictatorship" ! !
I must admit that when I realized I was moving at a faster clip this week, and that it felt significantly more plot based, I felt a little twinge of betrayal in Mervyn. Is this really the Mervyn we’ve come to know and love?
As we got to know Steerpike better in this section, I couldn’t help but think about Wolf Hall, another dense book about the inner workings of royalty and the functionaries all jockeying for first position in their minds. Though I don’t think WH is particularly grotesque or funny iirc but it’s been a decade since I read it…
I really laughed when there was a nine stanza poem and then the first sentence after is “Steerpike, after the end of the second verse ceased to pay any attention to the words...”
When Keda first reveals she had two boyfriends named “Rantel” and “Braigon” I really thought it was going to lose my mind.
The twins Cora and Clarice are me and Clare in the home.
I know Matt loves Wolf Hall, which was also a big favorite of a lot of my grad school cohort. I read it last January and felt frustrated and underwhelmed by it, but it's possible, also, that I took a very petty issue with it which was namely: not very funny. I don't know that I need a book to be funny, but I felt that for all of the viciousness of that era, there might be a bit more irony to the whole affair.
feels like the sudden onset of Plot does supplant the intricate descriptions of last week's reading, but we got a lovely throwback in this #devastating burn on the poet: "It was a long head. It was a wedge, a sliver, a grotesque slice in which it seemed the features had been forced to stake their claims, and it appeared that they had done so in a hurry and with not attempt to form any kind of symmetrical pattern for their mutual advantage"
otherwise this mostly moved at a real clip for me, very much enjoyed Irma/Steerpike's unprofessional flirting and the rhapsodic description of Steerpike eating a pear ("they met in the secret and dark centre of the fruit", etc.)
may still be too early to ask, but does anyone have any thoughts on the structure of this thing? as in, the way that chapters seem to have almost random lengths, run in and onto each other and break up scenes for reasons i can't figure out. they don't always seem particularly attached to the POV changes either. recalling Fran's first post and wondering if it's maybe a visual art thing, the mostly descriptive titles feel like storyboarding maybe? probably overthinking it!!!
(still #TeamFlay here, if only because my knees also crack when i walk)
The structure feels entirely arbitrary to me, which is probably an uninformed thing to say, but it does have that greater impressionistic feel of, well, every chapter is as long as it needs to be whether that's 1000 word or 4000 words, including the otherwise straightforward chapters (I loved seeing one of my all time favorite phrases: the gift of gab). The resemblance to storyboarding is a great observation though - and looking through some of Peake's paintings/illustrations lend a "chapter art" sensibility, like you could almost certainly give each chapter a single illo and know what's been going on.
I initially thought with that sliver description that Steerpike was looking through a really narrow window at part of a face and then realized, oh no, that's just a guy who is a sliver.
Speaking of mounting dread and what all these people are plotting... it's beginning to feel a lot like Dickens. Steerpike and Nannie Slagg feel especially Dickensian to me.
Most enjoyable for me this week was the verbal sparring between Prunesquallor and "Steerpike of the many problems." "But you HAVE problems, said the doctor." "My problems are varied, he said. The most immediate is to impress you with my potentialities. To be able to make such an unorthodox remark is in itself a sign of some originality."
Nannie Slagg has that kind of frantic Dickensian energy to me - rampant shifting loyalties and emotions. She's much less at peace with her own subservience than a lot of her peers - fascinating!
Steerpike of many problems unfortunately very relatable to me... in that my problems are also varied and I hope to impress people with my potentialities.
Just having a great time with this book! A few things that made me laugh this section:
-The Countess being a grotesque Disney princess with all her little animal friends is such a funny visual in this world.
-Fuschia dumping the gross moldy old flower water on Steerpike and basically being like "nailed it!" when he wakes up. Such a perfect image.
-I just visualize "The Shining" twins but grown up with "we love power!" Cora and Clarice. I also love that their main trait in Gormenghast is that they are forgotten and halfway through their second appearance in the book is in a chapter called "reintroducing the twins." Even Mervyn is rubbing it in that they are forgotten!
-Flay discovering the murder plot by watching Swelter rehearse the killing in an elaborately staged practice set was so great. "How did Swelter know that he slept with his chin at his knees? How did Swelter know his head always pointed to the east?" My man is not doing well!!
omg the flower water... as someone whose greatest and most consistent sin is "leaving dead flower in vase too long" that scene was so visceral and disgusting... I can only imagine... reason enough to root for Steerpike right then and there. Flay is suffering... but he will survive (or will he?) <3
I don't think I've read something that actually made me gag in a long time and this definitely did. Old flower water turned sludge is so specific and so disgusting!!
The comparison to watching Survivor feels really apt to me! I feel like I’m constantly just poking my head into conversations/rooms to find out what people are doing. (In this comparison, is Steerpike’s roof journey parallel to Exile Island??)
Favorite sequence from this section was everything with the christening—from a dramatic lineup, the Countess asking to wrap it up, wrapping Titus in a book and dropping him, to the man named Pentecost whose job is just “plants”.
Excited to keep reading! Feeling less into Steerpike than before but appreciating him as someone moving plot forward. Still holding a special place in my heart for Fuschia!
omg Exile Island... yes exactly... I am really an OG Survivor head and I only tune into the later seasons when I hear they're really cooking which means I am constantly confused by all of the additional idols and islands in play... not unlike this reading experience, though I think Gormenghast is much less confusing.
I am worried we'll see less of people as Steerpike moves through them but Fuschia and her big old ruby necklace must return!
One thing I do love is that while steerpike is a major character, Peake is always sure to illuminate the other characters, with time, and even one-off characters because steerpike’s encroachment on the mosaic-like world allows the reader to glimpse aspects of the castle that it’s nobility is hardly, if at all aware of because they are so bound up in the random, intensive daily rituals
it just occurred to me that one of the writers Peake reminds me of and whom he surely influenced is Thomas Ligotti. Not really in philosophical terms, Ligotti's cosmic horror doesn't have much in common with the various worldviews Peake's writing inhabits, but a kind of cosmetic thing about the very arch speech and naming conventions that I think serve a mechanical function for the author in pushing their work out of the realm of familiar human experience and into something more coherently and formally constructed. still chewing on this
Loved the extended sequence of castle roof romping, if only because parapet is one of the all-time best words (A Room with a View is my favorite book!!). I think I could find myself picking up just that section repeatedly in the future.
In the context of reality tv, I am now thinking about which characters are doing the Producing? Who is the Lala Kent? The obvious answer is Steerpike with his performances, but I think there might be a hyper reality that he can’t access. So maybe the Doctor?
I’m going to be sure to not spoil anything but it’s so fun to read people’s comments, and to reread this myself. I don’t know anyone else who has read these books but they are so good, profoundly singular, especially the second in the trilogy which I hope you all will read next 🙈
I missed #MervynMay Week 1 because I hadn’t finished the reading yet (classic), but I have been catching up and am loving this. I’m kind of glad I didn’t read it when I was younger, mainly because I would have probably gotten lost in all the dense descriptive passages. Action that in a tighter book would take a couple of chapters takes 100 pages here, but nothing ever feels bogged down because of Peake’s obvious skill at the line level. There’s always ongoing conversations about the lack of craft in modern genre lit, how everything seems written to be adapted to the screen or be as fast-paced as possible to keep readers’ attention, and while I have no idea if any of that is true it’s fun to go back and see how the OGs did it. RETVRN, etc.
Funny enough, even though description is the name of the game here, I have a hard time imagining the setting as anything but dim and gray every time I think about it visually, even when Peake mentions sunlight and green plants like he does during the christening. Maybe it’s because so much of it takes place inside a structure with endless hallways and rooms full of dust and lumber(?) and misshapen people who have all been there for a very long time.
I’ve also seen the word “grotesque” thrown around a little in these comments and I want to mention that “grotesques,” as in, the noun, are little stone carvings of creatures or faces that are affixed to the walls or roofs of buildings, kind of like gargoyles but without the drainage aspect. They’re exactly what comes to mind when I’m reading Peake’s exaggerated descriptions of all of his characters: freaky little guys with weird vibes attached to a giant building.
Funniest moment to me so far is Steerpike attempting to charm Fuschia (who is giving Bella Baxter Poor Things) by pretending to be a mime, and it works!
I think one of the other issues with the prose of contemporary fiction being suited towards adaptation is that there is an immense and annoying pressure for everything to "make sense." I think if I were to assign everyone to draw a map of Gormenghast there'd be, I don't know, 20 different versions of it, and yet this kind of floating concept of what the world looks like doesn't hinder the overall comprehension nor does it detract from what is "happening," it only enriches the power of imagination. For once I am glad a book doesn't have a map in the beginning.
I keep thinking of Sideways Stories from Wayside School... <3 Sachar
This is why I chafe at “magic systems” and backstory flashbacks and stuff like that. Sometimes it’s appropriate but sometimes it feels like the author is covering all their bases for their least charitable readers.
Imagine like...a Titus Groan prequel explaining why everything is Like That. Gormenghast First Class. Swelter v Flay: Origins. Young Prunesquallor.
The Good Prunesquallor...
The Steerpike Clown scene is fantastic. Also, it made me more interested in Steerpike as a person -- at first he seemed like a bit of a whiner to me (and then, after the climbing sequence, a more athletic whiner), so it's nice to see the guy thinking on his feet. Hard not to be disarmed by a clown with lather all over his face.
One thing that keeps me rooting for Steerpike in spite of his increasing sinistry is the novelty of his existence in this world. It feels as though the confines of Castle Gormenghast are trapped in amber (no Zelazny), as if the conceit of divine right that powered the engine of feudalism for a good 1000 years or so was genuine and absolute, and along comes young Steerpike, who’s the first person in the history of the Earldom of Groan to ever discover that one could potentially rise to a position of influence through deceit and flattery. It reminds me a little of the film “The Invention Of Lying” with Ricky Gervais, which is not very good at all but has a tremendously fun premise that would’ve made for a great Jack Lemmon comedy in the mid-1960s.
The Swelter/Flay beef proves that the cogs and complications that run the Gormenghast are more than mere automatons, but interpersonal hatred is a far cry from power plays and trickery. This may be the most fantastical element of Gormenghast— it’s a world in which feudal stations are embodied entirely, like the Arthurian romances. In Le Mort D’Arthur, (spoilers for a 1100 year old text ahead) the Kingdom of Brittany is doomed into chaos by personal treachery and emotion, functionally, by the abandonment of the Ten Commandments from within Camelot. Lancelot betrays his king out of love for his maiden, and that tortures him as a good, duty-bound Christian. Those who strive for power (Mordred and Agravain— names that would totally fit in castle Gormenghast) are outside influences, true villains, utterly godless and conceived out of Witchcraft. Here, the calls seem to be coming from inside the house.
reeling at The Invention of Lying and The Hangover getting brought up in the same #MervynMay discussion post... 2009 called???
In the way that we have no idea what the point of any royal family is anymore, it's hard to know why exactly an Earl of Gormenghast exists beyond the longwinded lore and tradition of wrapping a baby in an old book where even as conniving as Steerpike might be, his unbalancing allows surprise and wonder where there was not. He's not a psycho, at least, not that we know yet - but him watching the sunset over the castle suggested that he too can find awe and admiration the way that Keda can seek out love.
I think I didn't really read the beef between Swelter and Flay as actual hatred until this portion of the book versus their rivalry being really played for... well, not LAUGHS, per se, but as an aside. But these guys want each other dead! That's crazy. They should bring some of that energy to Downton.
Side note: even if the rivalry isn't being played for laughs, the scene where Flay figures out that Swelter is practicing Flay's murder is extremely funny (as was Flay humiliating Swelter in the... what is it? The Cool Room? The Chill Room? The Cold Room). Plus, maybe we should keep an eye on this murder practice. Best laid plans etc etc
steerpike on the roof reminded me of the plot of THE HANGOVER
here are my 3 jbol moments of the week (couldn't pick one):
1. “Mr Flay was possessed by two major vexations. The first of these lay in the feud which had arisen between himself and the mountain of pale meat…” it’s one thing after the other w these two... but i am team Swelter bc he's getting fat shamed every 20 pages
2. me after challengers: “Fuchsia clasped her hands at the curve of her breasts in the attitude of prayer. But she was not praying.”
3. this is what fran says when she publishes a new fran mag: “In the fine art of deceit and personal advancement as in any other calling this is the hallmark of the master.”
and of course jbol at all three of your observations... including the one about my own publishing tendencies
what did you make of Keda's two boyfriends? challengers or no challengers?
Rantel is Patrick and Braigon is Art.. right?? Not sure Keda is a Tashi but also NOT not sure.
Isn't it only Challengers if Keda's only really there to *spoilers for Challengers* help them kiss each other?
they should have been at the club, etc.
this. and no keda is too nice for it to be challengers. tashi would not be happy if her house was taken away or whatever
I jotted down (took a picture of) Prunesquallor's "What maladdress, by all that's impudent!" Maladdress? Helluva word.
Steerpike's journey over the many roofs of Gormenghast is also probably the most outright "fantastical" experience we've seen in the book so far, yes? I don't mean to be the genre-obsessive here, but I'm fascinated by the idea (someone brought this up last week, I think) that fantasy could have branched off into an entirely different direction if these novels had been more celebrated than the Lord of the Rings. Instead of heroes journeys and warring clans, we could have had weird guys going on strange non-adventures and scheming their way out of bad jobs. Which kind of describes many of the books I read already, but very few of them feature castles or baptismal ceremonies that involve a baby getting burrito-wrapped in the pages of an old book.
Keda-watch: though she still seems to be our least outrageously drawn character (really dig Justin's point about how similar she is to someone like Paul Atreides), I think the last scene we got with her ended on a pretty funny note. She goes back to the mud-dwellings, determined not to start shit between her old boyfriends and what does she do? She can't help herself! She looks too good! She loves too hard! (am I misreading this entirely?)
Re the pace -- it's working for me right now, but I can usually crush 90 to a hundred pages of a book no sweat in a day or two and this definitely feels a lil more laborious? I don't really wanna slow down, as I feel like I might fall out of step otherwise, but I'm not exactly racing through our weekly page count either. Curious to know if others are having the same experience.
Yes, the LOTR comparison is Phil's big note and was one of the big hallmarks in my deciding on this book, just the overwhelming curiosity at what a type of "fantasy book" could look and feel like. We have a version of a hero's journey, a regular boy who may become something great, but the context in which we understand him is so much stranger and less tangible, and I feel grateful that we're not contending with any version of a macguffin (so much as there are just a handful of props and objects that feel important as they trade hands).
“She goes back to the mud-dwellings, determined not to start shit between her old boyfriends and what does she do? She can't help herself!”
this really truly is Paul Atreides, can only hope it goes better for Keda! Don’t start a jihad girl!
telling everyone in my life that im reading 'downton abbey populated by dark souls characters' has been almost as fun as actually reading the book itself. Claire noted last week how the active-ness of many of his descriptions make it tough to discern between descriptions and actual character actions, and the more i get used to it the more fun that it.
I don't really know what to make of it yet, but I loved the scene where Steerpike is feeling his way around the (rooftop?) rock garden. The thing that jumps out to me most about his arc so far is that it very much feels like 'this is what a LinkedIn Bro thinks he would do if he was dropped into the kitchen of a medieval castle'
Prunesquallor and his sister's little 'Frasier and Niles' living setup is also fun; I also actually wrote down her quote about his insufferable levity. He plays too much! He plays too much!
I know she's a worn down old lady, but Nannie Slagg constantly complaining about the people of Gormenghast Gormenghasting feels like the Mulaney bit about Ice-T acting nonplussed by every perverted perp they run into on Law & Order: SVU
Prunesquallor and Irma is very Frasier and Niles... I was wondering what you found of Irma's sartorial choices - all her tight dresses and otherwise form-fitting attire for her bony body. Is she Gormenghast's foremost fashionista? (By process of elimination?)
in my mind's eye, she is Yzma from Emperor's New Groove (2000)
I'm lol
Two young men, one a newborn. People who are affected by that birth. We have a nurse ... a countess. We have a doctor, brilliantly played by Prunesquallor. We have a cook. We have a librarian. We have all these characters.
- Didn't have as much time to dig into this section this week but I agree with our fearless leader that this is where Gormenghast becomes much more expansive and unpredictable even than it initially appeared, to the extent that easy or snap characterizations of Peake's project become more difficult to make use of. The climbing sequence busts a lot of conventional narratives apart. Yes, Steerpike is scheming his way, we presume, to the top ... but the top of what? Not easy to answer when the topography itself is so difficult to get a handle on. It's interesting that the characters he's chosen to attach himself to, so far, don't actually seem all that powerful, but then the nodes of power in this environment are also difficult to locate. He's learning about the world as we are: a parallel for the infant Titus, and for the writer/reader in a fantasy setting.
- the other sequence that really sent my head spinning was "Keda and Rantel". This chapter is in a much different, more straightforwardly Romantic register than the rest of the novel. I don't think Keda is described as a grotesque in the way that the other characters are, and Rantel and Braigon are like Byronic heroes, figures out of the Brontes or Hardy's pastorals. This doomed love triangle is the first time that any conflict in the story seems to have emotional as well as mortal stakes. I love the way that Peake (through Keda) writes about beauty as if it is a temporary enchantment placed upon the Outer dwellers, one that ends abruptly with the end of one's youth, and seems as in this chapter to bring with it both excitement and madness. I can see this as a plot element the novel may choose to elaborate on later or an elegant fictional lens for the condition of young adulthood.
I'm really lol..
that the Earl has played so small a role thus far also makes Steerpike's journey upwards feel peculiar, if not also thrilling - we don't really know what the Earl DOES in a political/socioeconomic sort of way, we mostly just know that he is depressed and hangs out in the library all the time (MUST BE NICE), but his power, so much that he does or doesn't have, seems otherwise tied to obligation and lore more than it is indulged, abused, or even flaunted. The Countess, I suppose, with her We Bought A Zoo energy might be taking greater advantage, but mostly to walk from room to room. Steerpike doesn't know any of this, of course, which grants his scheming a kind of freedom from obligation or particular want (for now).
The Keda section is really so nuts.. a complete 180 in tone and priority, the only character who is concerned with love, maybe? (Though I suspect Nannie Slagg in her own way thinks that she is acting on affection.) But Peake manages to do all this without objectifying the lives of the have-nots; it's not like they are free to have these immense personal relationships because they are poor or on the outskirts of society so much as they are literally just framing the world in a different way, like the ways in which late 19th century painters would also exploit the sublime. I imagine if you are always just looking UP at Gormenghast, your brain works entirely differently
I’m rolling at the ‘we bought a zoo energy’ lmfao
Nothing in the first 170 pages led me to believe that the next 3 would set up a duel between rival lovers, but the Keda stuff was probably my favorite of this section. Her awakening reminded me of a more life-affirming version of Paul’s prescience in Dune, with Keda high on life instead of spice. “I am in love with all things—pain and all things, because I can now them from above, for something has happened and I am clear—clear.” Just lovely! And how fun to watch her suitors react to her love-drunkenness.
Also enjoyed everything Steerpike got up to, from his Houdini-ass escape to his scheming and flattery. Very curious what he’s cooking up, endgame-wise. Maybe nothing?
Other than that, no choice but to LOL at Swelter rehearsing Flay’s murder, and I loved this passage about the Earl’s library harmonizing with his depression: “All things in the long room absorbed his melancholia. The shadowing galleries brooded with slow anguish; the books receding into the deep corners, tier upon tier, seemed each a tragic note in a monumental fugue of volumes.”
Fran’s post reminded me of the incredible sibling burn about “insufferable levity,” but I’m curious if anyone has a good read on the doctor in general? The Fuchsia medicine/wine scene felt so creepy to me but I’m not sure I totally understood what was going on
That the Earl's main thing is "being depressed" feels thus far underexplored (I have the type of too online culture writer brain worms where I can only think about people being like "TTPD is problematic because Taylor Swift is mad at Joe Alwyn for having depression").
The prose around Keda's POV feels so unlike a lot of what comes on either side of it. Her little arc in this chapter feels - for now - more optimistic than others, or at least in touch with the greater weight of the world rather than play-acting the world (which is perhaps also why her pain feels more potent).
I wonder the type of character that Prunesquallor is might have felt less threatening during the time in which it was written -- to me he is almost like a scary clown (upbeat, jovial, mildly menacing) though he hasn't actively (? I don't think) put anyone into harm's way. Perhaps he is just a "loler," as they say.
I think you and Jake are right re: Prunesquallor -- scary clown is a helpful/harrowing image, though I agree that he's mostly just doing things to amuse himself. The Earl being a little one-note is interesting because we're halfway through this book (ostensibly) about succession, and yet the Earl (depressed) and his son (purple eyes) are arguably the two least developed characters. Not that I'm complaining, just notable!
In many ways they are both a baby
Prunesquallor becomes much more legible and lovable over time, he’s my second favorite character, behind Fushia
Re Fuschia's medicine/wine -- I get the sense that Prunesquallor is the medieval equivalent of that doctor your friends told you about who hands out prescriptions like candy. I also caught onto a light vibe between him and his sister, but maybe I'm wrong?
I think she has a vibe with anyone who pays attention to her, him included
this is helpful, and also possibly not because now I'm just picturing dr. leo spaceman
As someone who has read and loved all three gormenghast books, steerpike’s arc is crazy af…especially as Titus gets older in the second book. It’s so interesting to revisit his origins! He’s a wicked little guy but undeniably clever, and such a perfect device to explore how strange the world is, because he is a class outsider
love hearing this, and kind of fascinated by him being somewhat outright wicked. I just got to the line in the next section where he's envisioning a "delicious dictatorship" ! !
I must admit that when I realized I was moving at a faster clip this week, and that it felt significantly more plot based, I felt a little twinge of betrayal in Mervyn. Is this really the Mervyn we’ve come to know and love?
As we got to know Steerpike better in this section, I couldn’t help but think about Wolf Hall, another dense book about the inner workings of royalty and the functionaries all jockeying for first position in their minds. Though I don’t think WH is particularly grotesque or funny iirc but it’s been a decade since I read it…
I really laughed when there was a nine stanza poem and then the first sentence after is “Steerpike, after the end of the second verse ceased to pay any attention to the words...”
When Keda first reveals she had two boyfriends named “Rantel” and “Braigon” I really thought it was going to lose my mind.
The twins Cora and Clarice are me and Clare in the home.
I know Matt loves Wolf Hall, which was also a big favorite of a lot of my grad school cohort. I read it last January and felt frustrated and underwhelmed by it, but it's possible, also, that I took a very petty issue with it which was namely: not very funny. I don't know that I need a book to be funny, but I felt that for all of the viciousness of that era, there might be a bit more irony to the whole affair.
I love when you and Clare are in the home <3
i bought wolf hall because matt told me to and that was 2 years ago and i keep forgetting to read it. someday, i will #wolfhall2026
hi everyone...
feels like the sudden onset of Plot does supplant the intricate descriptions of last week's reading, but we got a lovely throwback in this #devastating burn on the poet: "It was a long head. It was a wedge, a sliver, a grotesque slice in which it seemed the features had been forced to stake their claims, and it appeared that they had done so in a hurry and with not attempt to form any kind of symmetrical pattern for their mutual advantage"
otherwise this mostly moved at a real clip for me, very much enjoyed Irma/Steerpike's unprofessional flirting and the rhapsodic description of Steerpike eating a pear ("they met in the secret and dark centre of the fruit", etc.)
may still be too early to ask, but does anyone have any thoughts on the structure of this thing? as in, the way that chapters seem to have almost random lengths, run in and onto each other and break up scenes for reasons i can't figure out. they don't always seem particularly attached to the POV changes either. recalling Fran's first post and wondering if it's maybe a visual art thing, the mostly descriptive titles feel like storyboarding maybe? probably overthinking it!!!
(still #TeamFlay here, if only because my knees also crack when i walk)
The structure feels entirely arbitrary to me, which is probably an uninformed thing to say, but it does have that greater impressionistic feel of, well, every chapter is as long as it needs to be whether that's 1000 word or 4000 words, including the otherwise straightforward chapters (I loved seeing one of my all time favorite phrases: the gift of gab). The resemblance to storyboarding is a great observation though - and looking through some of Peake's paintings/illustrations lend a "chapter art" sensibility, like you could almost certainly give each chapter a single illo and know what's been going on.
I initially thought with that sliver description that Steerpike was looking through a really narrow window at part of a face and then realized, oh no, that's just a guy who is a sliver.
oh, other fave bit: when the sisters just announce "we love power" in the chat at prunesquallor's. two icons, love them, no notes
Speaking of mounting dread and what all these people are plotting... it's beginning to feel a lot like Dickens. Steerpike and Nannie Slagg feel especially Dickensian to me.
Most enjoyable for me this week was the verbal sparring between Prunesquallor and "Steerpike of the many problems." "But you HAVE problems, said the doctor." "My problems are varied, he said. The most immediate is to impress you with my potentialities. To be able to make such an unorthodox remark is in itself a sign of some originality."
Re pace: it feels about right.
Nannie Slagg has that kind of frantic Dickensian energy to me - rampant shifting loyalties and emotions. She's much less at peace with her own subservience than a lot of her peers - fascinating!
Steerpike of many problems unfortunately very relatable to me... in that my problems are also varied and I hope to impress people with my potentialities.
Hi mom
Hey Claire
Just having a great time with this book! A few things that made me laugh this section:
-The Countess being a grotesque Disney princess with all her little animal friends is such a funny visual in this world.
-Fuschia dumping the gross moldy old flower water on Steerpike and basically being like "nailed it!" when he wakes up. Such a perfect image.
-I just visualize "The Shining" twins but grown up with "we love power!" Cora and Clarice. I also love that their main trait in Gormenghast is that they are forgotten and halfway through their second appearance in the book is in a chapter called "reintroducing the twins." Even Mervyn is rubbing it in that they are forgotten!
-Flay discovering the murder plot by watching Swelter rehearse the killing in an elaborately staged practice set was so great. "How did Swelter know that he slept with his chin at his knees? How did Swelter know his head always pointed to the east?" My man is not doing well!!
omg the flower water... as someone whose greatest and most consistent sin is "leaving dead flower in vase too long" that scene was so visceral and disgusting... I can only imagine... reason enough to root for Steerpike right then and there. Flay is suffering... but he will survive (or will he?) <3
I don't think I've read something that actually made me gag in a long time and this definitely did. Old flower water turned sludge is so specific and so disgusting!!
The comparison to watching Survivor feels really apt to me! I feel like I’m constantly just poking my head into conversations/rooms to find out what people are doing. (In this comparison, is Steerpike’s roof journey parallel to Exile Island??)
Favorite sequence from this section was everything with the christening—from a dramatic lineup, the Countess asking to wrap it up, wrapping Titus in a book and dropping him, to the man named Pentecost whose job is just “plants”.
Excited to keep reading! Feeling less into Steerpike than before but appreciating him as someone moving plot forward. Still holding a special place in my heart for Fuschia!
omg Exile Island... yes exactly... I am really an OG Survivor head and I only tune into the later seasons when I hear they're really cooking which means I am constantly confused by all of the additional idols and islands in play... not unlike this reading experience, though I think Gormenghast is much less confusing.
I am worried we'll see less of people as Steerpike moves through them but Fuschia and her big old ruby necklace must return!
One thing I do love is that while steerpike is a major character, Peake is always sure to illuminate the other characters, with time, and even one-off characters because steerpike’s encroachment on the mosaic-like world allows the reader to glimpse aspects of the castle that it’s nobility is hardly, if at all aware of because they are so bound up in the random, intensive daily rituals
it just occurred to me that one of the writers Peake reminds me of and whom he surely influenced is Thomas Ligotti. Not really in philosophical terms, Ligotti's cosmic horror doesn't have much in common with the various worldviews Peake's writing inhabits, but a kind of cosmetic thing about the very arch speech and naming conventions that I think serve a mechanical function for the author in pushing their work out of the realm of familiar human experience and into something more coherently and formally constructed. still chewing on this
they share a birthday...... if that's anything....
Def!!!
Loved the extended sequence of castle roof romping, if only because parapet is one of the all-time best words (A Room with a View is my favorite book!!). I think I could find myself picking up just that section repeatedly in the future.
In the context of reality tv, I am now thinking about which characters are doing the Producing? Who is the Lala Kent? The obvious answer is Steerpike with his performances, but I think there might be a hyper reality that he can’t access. So maybe the Doctor?
Maybe the librarian is Lala Kent... he tried (though failed) to produce the Christening...
“who is the lala kent” really sending me
I’m going to be sure to not spoil anything but it’s so fun to read people’s comments, and to reread this myself. I don’t know anyone else who has read these books but they are so good, profoundly singular, especially the second in the trilogy which I hope you all will read next 🙈